Hedaya 2.140 Annotated

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Hedaya 2.141 Annotated

Hedaya 2.141 Annotated by MessiahAdDajjal on Scribd

Preserve the First Amendment from Attack by the OIC!

Monday, October 09, 2006

Forum Wars II

Sysop John Linendoll, who controls content and access at Netscape's News Forum and World Issues Forum, has a habit of posting slurs & innuendo against participants who criticize Islam. Being unable to refute the facts, he bans his adversaries so that they can not respond to his attacks.

I encourage everyone to follow the links above and join the forums. Some of those threads receive thousands of viewings. They offer an unparalelled opportunity to propagate truth, at least until Mr. Linendoll discovers it.

I intend to reproduce here my recent posts in the News Forum, all of which have been deleted. Immediately below, you will find a post by John Linendoll to another critic of Islam followed by my response to it, which I was prevented from posting.
From John Linendoll Posts 7794 Last 9:17 AM
To patriotic9261979 [Msg # 213156.192 Message 213156.192 replying to 213156.181 213156.181 ]

You wrote:

"My comments related to this new wave of barbarism carried out in the name of Islam referring to teachings of the Koran and the Hadith"

And those who sew hate and death in the name of "Allah" or "Islam" or the "Muslim" faith are no more related to any of those terms than the Ku Klux Klan are related to Christianity.

Sewing hatred in the name of God is a reflection upon the single individual person sewing the hatred -- not upon God or the manner in which Buddhists or Christians or Jews or Muslims worship Him.

[Views expressed are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect those of CompuServe, Netscape, any government, agency, or news organization.]
Your claim that Islamic Jihad & terrorism are unrelated to Islam is completely false. Jihad & terror are sanctified and mandated by the Qur'an and exemplified in Muhammad's Sunnah, which facts I have amply substantiated elsewhere in this thread.
The following was posted by Mr. Linendoll; I was unable to respond to it due to being banned. My response follows.
#194 of 196
Posted Oct-8 9:44 PM John Linendoll

From John Linendoll Posts 7800 Last Oct-8
To capraafflatus [Msg # 213156.194 Message 213156.194 replying to 213156.191

capraafflatus

Readers will judge your messages of hate for what they are.

Racism is ugly, against whomsoever it is directed.

[Views expressed are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily reflect those of CompuServe, Netscape, any government, agency, or news organization.]
Forum participants will not read my messages of truth because you have deleted them. Islam is not a race; it is a continuing criminal enterprise which has victimized and enslaved people of many races and cultures on a global scale.

Objection to Islam's demonic doctrines which sanctify & mandate Jihad, terror & genocide is not rascism.
You have unfairly labled me rascist, a slur & a personal insult and you have prevented me from effectively refuting your valse accusation in the forum.
Another banned response follows; I was prevented from posting it to the News Forum. I have backquoted Mr. Linendoll's slur and responded with ample evidence from Islamic sources. [Superscripts are mine, and refer to the enumerated list in my response.]

You wrote:

<<>>

That is the kind of twisted illogic with which Adolf Hitler and his Nazi minions perpetrated the Holocaust against millions of Jews, merely because of the faith into which they were born1.

It is the sewing of hate2 based upon the way in which another or their family worship their Creator, and it is repugnant to all thinking beings3.

  1. Hitler invoked ancient blood libel and other canards of which Judiasm & Jews are innocent. I stated that Islam has an evil doctrine set. That statement is intrinsically true, and is supportable by relevant, verifiable evidence.
    • 2.191And kill them wherever you find them...
    • 8:39. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah ... and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone ..
    • 9:29. Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allâh...until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
    • 8:12. (Remember) when your Lord inspired the angels, "Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes."
    • 8:67. It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war (and free them with ransom) until he had made a great slaughter (among his enemies) in the land. You desire the good of this world (i.e. the money of ransom for freeing the captives), but Allâh desires (for you) the Hereafter. And Allâh is All-Mighty, All-Wise.
    Does the Qur'an consist of Allah's commands or not? Are those verses from the Qur'an or not? Do they not establish conquest, terrorism and genocide as Islamic doctrine? Are those doctrines not intrinsically evil? Please bring forth your relevant, verifiable factual evidence to prove that they are not!
  2. It is a statement of fact, which I have backed up with relevant, verifiable evidence, and your statement constitutes a slur against me. It falsely lables me liar & hatemonger, by innuendo.
  3. Islam worships Allah by slaughtering non-believers. Allah desires a "great slaughter", he sets it up as a prerequisite for holding hostages for ransom, and contrasts it with Muhammad's desire for the ransom. Refer to Al-Anfal 67. Once again, a slur has been cast against me: an implication that I do not think.
Appended below you will find my remaining recent posts, which have now been deleted from the News Forum.
The Professor has done a better than average job of condensing & distilling the escense of Islam and making a realistic factual presentation thereof. You can safely rely on what he wrote about Jihad, dar ul-Islam & Dar Ul-Harb. The bottom line: while there is Islam there is not peace.

President Bush and other 'leaders' deny the truth and spew lies because they are trapped in webs of lies of their own weaving. Unwilling to admit their practice of deceit, the stack lie upon lie trying to cover their butts from exposure.

Is Islam a 'religion of peace'? Don't ask me, ask Allah! Consult his book, see what he said on the matter; his eternal commands. Go to the University of Michigan's Koran search page and read the matches for these search terms:
  1. fight
  2. fighting
  3. kill
  4. terror
  5. success
  6. victory
  7. superior
  8. slaughter
  9. spoils
  10. reward
Next, consult Muhammad's excellent companions. Go to Islamic Network and search Sahih Bukhari for these terms:
  1. to fight
  2. spoils
  3. Safiya [second & third matches]
  4. Allah's cause
Next, search Muslim for expedition. Now search Abu Dawud for grown hair. Read the first result.


  • Why do you use this adjective; what is the need for modifiers to the name of evil? As it describes them for what they are.
  • Please quote the relevant Koranic verses; show us directly what you are writing about. This has nothing to do with the verses in the Koran. It has to do with the bastardation of the verses by these Islamic Fascist Groups.
  • Is it really that simple? Are there stated limitiations on eligibility for the alternative? If so, where is it found in the Koran? The Koran like any other holy book is not evil. It is the people that interpret these holy books and use the ambiguous verses to hurt others that are evil. It is that simple. That is why the terrorists are evil.
  • How can we hope to get Muslim countries to work against themselves? If there is some real difference between Muslims and "Islamic fascists", please define and substantiate it! Most Muslims do not kill in the name of God and do not advocate what the Islamic fascists do.
  • By what means? Embargo and sanction all countries that harbor or support terror. Get the free world to unite in this war against terror.
  • Will you take their children away from them; station censors in their schools? Well it all starts in the countries that support and harbor terror. If we do something about it then we are doing our part. If we do nothing and let them grow and take over more and more countries in the end it will be another world war where millions upon millions will perish.
  • Quit buying their petroleum? And get it where? Sanction every allie we have? Sanction ourselves? [There are about 2 million Muslims on our shores, with many terrorist supporters in Dearborn Michigan.Muslims are not terrorists and never were. Islamic Facists are murderers and must be dealt with. Yes if most of free world will stop to buy oil from Iran and not trade with them you will see how fast they will sink in there own oil.
    1. I believe the name Islam to be sufficient without qualifiers. I believe that superflous qualifiers foster the false belief that Islam has been 'hijacked', 'perverted' or 'distorted' by 'extremists'. I repeat my request for substantiation. You can find substantiating facts for my position here.
    2. I wish to see some proof that 'Islamic Fascists' have 'bastardized' verses of the Koran. Detailed information in the document hyperlinked above proves otherwise. .
    3. You did not answer my question: who is eligible for Dhimmitude and who is not? Who recited & exemplified the Koran? Please show some proof that said recitation and exemplification were not evil!
    4. What differentiates those who do from those who don't? Please explain why some do and others don't wage Jihad.
    5. How do you propose to unite the free world?
    6. How do you propose to control what is inculcated in the Madrassahs of Pakistan & Saudi Arabia?
    7. Who was it that terrorized the Jews of Khaibar? Who terrorized the tribe of Banî An-Nadîr? Were they Muslims? Were they 'Islamic Fascists'? Please substantiate your answer.
    Was Muhammad a "true Muslim"? What did he say and do about "terror"?

    First of all, thank you for your questions. I will take the time to answers most of
    your questions if needed. However, I think I can address your concern with a few simple
    statements.

    In Post Board Message #26 I stated that " I believe anyone should be able to practice
    their religion without impunity so long as their actions do no harm to others".1

    If the correct interpretation of the Koran is indeed one to promote violence towards anyone
    who does not live their way of life, then yes such a foundation in beliefs IS problematic with
    respect to violence.2

    So how do we address that problem?3

    frogsluvme111 posted a question in message #4 on this Post Board.

    "Where is the moderate Muslim outrage"?4

    1. In principle, Hajj, Salat & Zakat should do no harm. In practice, excessive crowding at Hajj has cost hundreds of lives and in 1991(if memory serves) the Holy Land Foundation raised nearly $13M for Hamas in America.
    2. Who is better qualified to interpret the book than the man who recited it? "fight them until..." "only Allah is worshiped" ..."they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. " How did he interpret them? " I am commanded to fight with men till they testify that there is no god but Allah, ...When they do that, their life and property are unlawful for us except what is due to them. " "I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law..." Sahih Bukhari Ch 63, # 2989: ...Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, has commanded us to fight you until you worship Allah alone or pay the jizya. Out Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, has informed us from the message of our Lord: whoever of us is killed will go to the Garden in bliss whose like he has never seen. Whoever of us remains will be your masters.'
    3. By getting rid of Islam.
    4. Outrage is expressed at "insults" to Islam and at the killing of Muslims, not at the killing of Kuffar. The No2Jihad petition has only 84 signatures. Look it up at technorati to see where it is linked... not at any of the major American Muslim organizations! Even FMCAT declined to endorse it.

    I am writing this: any Muslim who opposes the Lesser Jihad, terrorism and genocides such as those against the Assyrians & Armenians is Mushrik, bordering on Apostate and, as such, condemned to the fire. Further, I am not convinced that they constitute a majority of the Ummah al-Islamiyya.

    Then they are Mushrik if not Apostate! Islam is submission to Allah and emulation of his Messenger. The seventh ayat of Surah 3 tells us that Muslims well grounded in knowledge believe the entire Qur'an, including the clear commands.

    Thank you for your reply. I have a few follow up questions:
    1. What groups? What else do they have in common? Their goal is to make Islam rule the world. These are all the Islamic Fascist1 groups. Hamas, Al Qeda, Hezbollah, Iranian Leaders, Taliban etc etc as there are many more.
    2. Why is universal submission their common cause? What makes submission so important? The whole concept of their belief is that the world must become Islamic. Islam must win by either war or our conversion. This is written in the Koran2 and they literally have this as their belief.
    3. Is there no alternative to death or submission? According to them there is not alternative unless those living under Islamic rule3 pay a tax of humiliation.
    4. What can we do about it? The free world must unite and recognize this threat. What we must do is win over Muslim countries to work with us against them4 as these Islamic Fascists are a threat to all Muslims also! We all have to make sure these Islamic fascists do not grow 5and teach their children to hate6. We must stop all trade and sanction countries that are either ruled by them or harbor them!7
    1. Why do you use this adjective; what is the need for modifiers to the name of evil?
    2. Please quote the relevant Koranic verses; show us directly what you are writing about.
    3. Is it really that simple? Are there stated limitiations on eligibility for the alternative? If so, where is it found in the Koran?
    4. How can we hope to get Muslim countries to work against themselves? If there is some real difference between Muslims and "Islamic fascists", please define and substantiate it!
    5. By what means?
    6. Will you take their children away from them; station censors in their schools?
    7. Quit buying their petroleum? And get it where? Sanction every allie we have? Sanction ourselves? [There are about 2 million Muslims on our shores, with many terrorist supporters in Dearborn Michigan.

    Please verify claims passed in emails before repeating them! The 9:11 quote you propagated is fabricated out of horse feathers and moonbeams.
    Koran (9:11) - For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken a fearsome Eagle. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughout the lands of Allah and lo, while some of the people trembled in despair still more rejoiced; for the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the lands of Allah; and there was peace.

    But if they repent, perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât) and give Zakât, then they are your brethren in religion. (In this way) We explain the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) in detail for a people who know. (At-Tawbah 9:11)
    You can verify this, and any other claimed Quranic verses here: http://www.thenoblequran.com/sps/nbq/nq.cfm?scn=jv by typing in the numbers in this format : 9:11.

    You can also search the Qur'an for any word or phrase here: http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/simple.html . Why propagate falsehood when truth is readily available?

    From a slightly different viewing angle: At Chron Watch, Arlene Peck exposes hypocrisy & the double standard.
    Well, the Muslims have been reacting to the ''apology'' from the pope. Too bad he backed down and turned the other cheek to them. Since the " xmlns="http://disruptive-innovations.com/zoo/nvu">" xmlns="http://disruptive-innovations.com/zoo/nvu">Vatican" xmlns="http://disruptive-innovations.com/zoo/nvu">" xmlns="http://disruptive-innovations.com/zoo/nvu"> kept too quiet about Hitler and Nazism, this might have been his great opportunity to stand up and make the Christian voice heard. Nothing Muslim, however--be it law, music, written words, or cultural practices--can be criticized. [...]

    I don’t doubt that somehow the latest actions by the Islamic world will end up being the fault of the Jews. It always is; it always has been. Does anyone go on a rampage when synagogues are bombed and Jewish day schools are desecrated?" xmlns="http://disruptive-innovations.com/zoo/nvu">" xmlns="http://disruptive-innovations.com/zoo/nvu">



    The article is short and well worth reading.

    How did you determine that the uninvolved "millions" are not involved and that they are fundamentalists ? Are they praying for victory? Are they contributing financially to the support of fighting forces on the battlefront? Are they offering moral support to the fighters? Are they supporting the cause with speech and writing or by aiding the families of those who have gone to fight? Is it possible that Bhudism & Christianity do not have a "warpath" in their foundations? Does Islam have a "warpath" in its foundation?
    ...Ironically, much like the Kuran is maligned and misinterpreted to justify violence.1

    Again I state, "Fundamentalism2 IS NOT The Problem"

    1. Who has misinterpreted the Kuran to justify violence? When, where and how? Please be specific and cite references. Did Muhammad interpret his revelation correctly? Please cite relevant hadith to show how he interpreted Al-Anfal and At-Taubah.

    2. What is the foundation of Islam? Why is it problematic with respect to violence? Please cite relevant ayat & hadith to substantiate your answer.
    Muslims follow the teachings of the prophet,1 PBUH. The Kur'an and the Muslim faith are uniformly respectful about Christianity2. That doesn't mean that they can't or shouldn't criticize the actions of those who call themselves Christians. The "something" that the Pope quoted just happened to state that the prophet, PBUH, was an evil fraud3. And those barbarian Muslims got upset about that! Who can understand them?
    1. Exactly what did the 'prophet' teach concerning Jihad, genocide and terror? Please cite specific ayat and hadith to substantiate your answer.
    2. Please cite ayat to demonstrate Islam's 'respect' for Christianity. Prove that your citations overrule 9:30.
    3. The quote said that his only significant innovation was the use of force to spread Islam. Please disprove it.

    What is your bottom line ?
    • The fatherhood of God
    • brotherhood of man
    • reciprocal duties of brotherly love, relief and truth
    • sanctity of innocent human life; that which neither approves, supports nor engages in intraspecis predation. Islam does not accept disbelievers as innocent, including us in their list of najis things.
    • The right to live unmolested and unthreatened; which right should be effectively enforced by our government, including overwhelming military force against Islamic aggressors.
    What is your bottom line? Why do you ignore my questions? Why do you ignore the relevant, verifiable facts I posted previously? Are you unable or unwilling to contest the facts?

    Like the Bible, the Koran is full of contradictions.1 Seen out of their historical context, both books are confusing.2 No one has a perfect understanding of the Bible, the Torah or the Koran.3 I believe, when reading any of the three, if one has the intent to have a closer relationship with God, the Spirit will move one in that direction. Further, I believe that literalist interpretations of spiritual messages can be roadblocks to one's relationship with the Creator4. If a person found a one huge rock in a vast desert and took it upon himself to know God through observing and studying that rock, his intent would not be hampered by written texts or religious dogma. It is the intent that matters, not the written word. The Creator's response to one's spiritual committment to know Him is written upon the heart by the Spirit, which is the Logos. What I'm saying is, there are many paths to the Creator.5

    Man is incapable of judging who is close to God and who is not. However, we have a responsibility to use discernment, to know what is good and what is evil, but no responsibility to judge another human's relationship with his Creator. By their works, we can take measure of who appears to be doing God's work.6 But we cannot say for certain how that person will be judged by God. Acts of kindness, love compassion and humility are indicators of a soul close to God. Acts of violence,hate, and indifference to the condition of other human-beings, indicate a soul separated from God's will. According to Christianity, Jesus is the embodiment of God's will in the flesh, and as such, is the exemplar of the Divine.

    As witnessed by Genesis, we are created in God's image. Meaning, there is the light of the Divine in each of us. Our choices draw us closer or further from God, as such, make up the fabric of our lives. Implanted with the spark of the Divine in each of us, is conscience acting as a compass to direct our decisions in life. Whatever religion one follows or if they follow none, the conscience is intrinsic to our design. When ignored long enough, the voice of conscience recedes, the person becomes a law unto himself and alienated from God. Conscience, when listened to, helps open the gate for the Spirit to enter further into our lives.

    East or West, all religions warn about unhealthy pride and ego which draw some people to the conclusion they are gods, that they are the law and the world is at their disposal as they wish.7 Islam, Judaism and Christianity teach one is to submit to the one God. The Eastern meditative religions warn about ego as a separator from the Divine...the soul is acknowledged as needed polishing by removal of material and profane desires: From pure intent, come pure works.

    It seems that religions are all instruments of guidance for humans to achieve the original, unified relationship with the Creator. Dogma as part of the path, is not the entire path, but a framework toward the final goal of uniting with the Divine Creator.
    1. 4:82. Do they not then consider the Qur'ân carefully? Had it been from other than Allâh, they would surely have found therein much contradictions. You just acknowledged that the qur'an did not come from the Creator! If it contains contradictions, it can not be of divine origin.
    2. Not according to Allah: 3:7. It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad) the Book (this Qur'ân). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book [and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkâm (commandments, etc.),[...]. He said that his commandmets are clear. Eg.: 8:39, 9:29.
    3. Can anyone understand the Qur'an better than the one who first recited it?
    4. How do you square that with 3:7? How do you square that with Muhammad's excellent example?
    5. Christ's path and Muhammad's are diametrically opposed. Which one leads to the Creator, and which one to his adversary?
    6. Whose work was Muhammad doing when he committed genocide?
    7. As in: [...]"You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I want to expel you from this land"[...] ??
    In my previous post, I pointed out:
    • How Islam diverges from Christianity by denying the identity & nature of Jesus and his death & ressurection.
    • How Muhammad united the tribes: by violence.
    • The subjugation & humiliation of Dhimmitude: specifically in collection of Jizya.
    • Allah's sanctification &amp; mandate; Muhammad's practice of Jihad, genocide & terrorism, the latter in direct disproof of a statement you quoted.
    • The mercenary purpose of proscribing killing women & children.
    • The mercenary purpose of Ghazwat.
    • The role of intolerance and compulsion through Jihad.
    Each of which vital points you have carefully avoided, neither acknowledging nor disproving them.

    Jesus is the result of a virgin birth in Islam as in Christianity, and is regarded as a prophet (24th one) like the others, and as the Messiah as well.1

    The Prophet gathered these different tribes under one system of governance which upheld pacts of alliances previously in existence between those individual tribes. 2

    Since the upper hand was with the Muslims, the Prophet strictly warned against any maltreatment of people of other faiths. He said:

    “Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, curtails their rights, burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment.” (Abu Dawud)3

    Islam, a religion of mercy, does not permit terrorism.4 In the Quran, God has said:

    “God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers.” (Quran 60:8)

    The Prophet Muhammad, may God praise him, used to prohibit soldiers from killing women and children,[1] and he would advise them: {...Do not betray, do not be excessive, do not kill a newborn child.}[2] And he also said: {Whoever has killed a person having a treaty with the Muslims shall not smell the fragrance of Paradise, though its fragrance is found for a span of forty years.}[3]5

    "And what is the matter with you that you do not fight in the cause of Allah and for those weak, ill treated and oppressed among men, women and children whose only cry is; 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors and raise for us from you one who will protect and raise for us from you one who will help"
    (Surah An-Nisa 4:75)6

    "There is no compulsion in religion. The right path has indeed become distinct from the wrong. So whoever rejects false worship and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All Hearing, All Knowing"
    (Surah Al-Baqarah 2:256)7
    *
    1. True as far as it goes. Allah denies Christ's divinity/status as son of YAHWEH. Allah also denies Christ's death & ressurection 4:157. He also attempts to coopt Christ, claiming in : 61:6 Christ foretold of Muhammad. In 61:14, Allah claims that Christ and his disciples engaged in interneccine conflict and overcame others by force.
    2. This Muhammad accomplished by military force: razzia & ghazwat with pillage, plunder and genocide.
    3. Al-Zamakhshari, a commentator on the Qur'an, said that "the Jizyah shall be taken from them with belittlement and humiliation. The dhimmi shall come in person, walking not riding. When he pays, he shall stand, while the tax collector sits. The collector shall seize him by the scruff of the neck, shake him, and say "Pay the Jizyah!" and when he pays it he shall be slapped on the nape of the neck." For more details see: http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Jizya . For the other social & legal restrictions imposed on dhimmis, see: http://answering-islam.org.uk/NonMuslims/rights.htm
    4. In the Qur'an, Allah sanctifies terrorism; in the hadith, Muhammad braggs about it!
      • 3:151. We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they joined others in worship with Allâh, for which He had sent no authority; their abode will be the Fire and how evil is the abode of the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrongdoers).
      • 8:12. (Remember) when your Lord inspired the angels, "Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes."
      • 33:26. And those of the people of the Scripture who backed them (the disbelievers) Allâh brought them down from their forts and cast terror into their hearts, (so that) a group (of them) you killed, and a group (of them) you made captives.
      • 33:27. And He caused you to inherit their lands, and their houses, and their riches, and a land which you had not trodden (before). And Allâh is Able to do all things.
      • 59:2. He it is Who drove out the disbelievers among the people of the Scripture (i.e. the Jews of the tribe of Banî An-Nadîr) from their homes at the first gathering. You did not think that they would get out. And they thought that their fortresses would defend them from Allâh! But Allâh's (Torment) reached them from a place whereof they expected it not, and He cast terror into their hearts, so that they destroyed their own dwellings with their own hands and the hands of the believers. Then take admonition, O you with eyes (to see).
      • Sahih Bukhari 4.52.220: [...] I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand.[...]
    5. The proscription on killing children [Sunnah Muslim 19.4294]is economic. Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 59, Number 512:
      [...]The Prophet had their warriors killed, their offspring and woman taken as captives.[...]
    6. What is the real purpose of ghazwat?
      • Lets look first at Surah Al-Anfal8:1. They ask you (O Muhammad ) about the spoils of war. Say: "The spoils are for Allâh and the Messenger." So fear Allâh and adjust all matters of difference among you, and obey Allâh and His Messenger (Muhammad ), if you are believers.
      • Take another look at 33:27, cited above.
      • 48:19. And abundant spoils that they will capture. And Allâh is Ever All-Mighty, All-Wise.
      • 48:20. Allâh has promised you abundant spoils that you will capture, and He has hastened for you this, and He has restrained the hands of men from you, that it may be a sign for the believers, and that He may guide you to a Straight Path.
      • 48:15. Those who lagged behind will say, when you set forth to take the spoils, "Allow us to follow you," They want to change Allâh's Words. Say: "You shall not follow us; thus Allâh has said beforehand." Then they will say: "Nay, you envy us." Nay, but they understand not except a little
      • Sahih Muslim 19.4327 The spoils of war were not made lawful for any people before us, This is because Allah saw our weakness and humility and made them lawful for us.
      • Sahih Muslim 19.4294 [...] do not embezzle the spoils[...]
      • Sahih Bukhari Ch 61 # 2756: ...It is mentioned from Ibn 'Umar from the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, "My provision has been placed under the shadow of my spear, and abasement and humility have been placed on the one who disobeys my command.
      • 8:39. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do.

      • 3:85. And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.

      • Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260:
        Narrated Ikrima:
        Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

    These sayings of Allah & Muhammad are from the Qur'an and traditions. I have quoted from Hilali' & Khan: The Noble Qur'an and linked to a tripple translation. In each case, I have provided hyperlinks so that the reader can verify the quotations and read the full context. The testimony of Allah & his Messenger is ample, requiring neither interpretation nor amplification.

    Is it possible that a belief system which requires believers to subjugate or kill and encourages them to rape and plunder non-believers has intrinsic merit?

    Have you ever observed as a cat stalks a mouse? The cat's vocalizations and facial expressions evince some mixture of anger and hatred. The cat psyches itself up for killing. So does Islam. As a disbeliever, you are on a list of najis things. Other items on that list include urine, fecal matter and dead bodies. From Islam's point of view, our relative prosperity and position of world leadership are the acme of injustice. Islam is the best of deen, Arabs are the best of people, and Qaraysh are the best of tribes. We are considered inferior beings; subhuman--to be subjugated, humiliated and enslaved if not killed. Our existence as Kuffar is an offense to Allah and proof that Muslims have not fulfilled their mandate to conquer the world. In consideration of the above facts, Shrub should abandon his false hope of "winning Muslim hearts and minds". It ain't possible!

    You would do well to inform yourself before spouting off. Knowledge is preferable to ignorance. Suggested reading:
    1. Surah 8
    2. Surah 9
    3. Surah 47
    4. Surah 48
    5. Sahih Bukhari #52
    6. Sahih Bukhari #53
    7. The Sealed Nectar "page 13"
    8. Jihad: The Islamic Doctrine of Permanent War

    There is an obvious conflict between 3:67 and 6:163! The quotes were from Hilali & Kahn's translation, the links are to three other translations.

    2:140. Or say you that Ibrâhim (Abraham), Ismâ'il (Ishmael), Ishâque (Isaac), Ya'qûb (Jacob) and Al-Asbât [the twelve sons of Ya'qûb (Jacob)] were Jews or Christians? Say, "Do you know better or does Allâh (knows better...; that they all were Muslims)? And who is more unjust than he who conceals the testimony [i.e. to believe in Prophet Muhammad Peace be upon him when he comes, written in their Books. (See Verse 7:157)] he has from Allâh? And Allâh is not unaware of what you do."


    3:67. Ibrâhim (Abraham) was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was a true Muslim Hanifa (Islâmic Monotheism - to worship none but Allâh Alone) and he was not of Al-Mushrikûn (See V.2:105).


    6:162. Say (O Muhammad): "Verily, my Salât (prayer), my sacrifice, my living, and my dying are for Allâh, the Lord of the 'Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

    6:163. "He has no partner. And of this I have been commanded, and I am the first of the Muslims."


    Evidently Allah suffers from cognitive dissonance. Abe was a true Muslim; Muhammad (a descendant of Abe) was the first of the Muslims.

    Severally, all we can do is broaden the dissemination of knowledge. Jointly,l as citizens of our respective nations, we can demand that our governments acknowledge truth and act upon it with common sense instead of the dhimmitude currently on display. [Response to "what can we do?"]
    I propounded two questions: Was Muhammad a "true Muslim"? What did he say and do about "terror"? You have evaded both of them. Now an additional question is raised by your evasive answer: how could Muhammad be the "first Muslim"? Islam claims that Abraham, Moses & Jesus were Muslims, in which case, Muhammad could not be the first. Turning back to the second question from the origional set: What did Muhammad preach about terror and what did he do about it? Did Muhammad use terror as a battle tactic? You may safely assume that I know the answers and am trying to lead you to acknowledge them.

    I am unable to share your optimism. When Slick was in office, his wife & daughter spent about $250. on Islamic books. I presume those included a Qur'an & at least one Hadith collection. Whether they ever cracked those books; whether they wound up in the White House library I do not know. I do know that the current President has been advised by Dr. Daniel Pipes, which should be sufficient.

    I have seen the truth presented many ways, but none matching the power of Yashiko Sagamori's "Silence of the Sheep". She manages to distill & condense a great deal of factual information into a few words. She makes excellent use of irony to drive her point home. Here is a small sample:
    The appropriate response should have come from the revered Islamic leaders diligently issuing scholarly fatwahs from their quiet offices in the ornate mosques of Mecca and Qum;[...] where righteous imams teach their students to bravely navigate bottomless oceans of unsurpassed humanism abundant in every Koranic sura, every hadith, every reference to Mohammad's blessed life; from the royal and presidential palaces of budding Muslim democracies that our government lists among allies in our war on their terror.[...]

    Sheikh Abubukar Hassan Malin, of the recently established Somalia's Supreme Islamic Courts Council, didn't mention anything good or humane that came from Mohammad. Instead, he urged Muslims “...wherever you are to hunt down the Pope for his barbaric statements as you have pursued Salman Rushdie, the enemy of Allah who offended our religion. Whoever offends our Prophet Mohammed should be killed on the spot by the nearest Muslim. [...]

    Al-Qaeda, in a joint statement with the Mujahideen Shura Council, declared: “...you and the West are doomed as you can see from the defeat in Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya, and elsewhere. ...We will break up the cross, spill the liquor and impose the jizya tax, then the only thing acceptable is a conversion [to Islam] or [being killed by] the sword. ...God enable us to slit their throats, and make their money and descendants the bounty of the Mujahideen.”

    Kudos to Osama. To the best of my kowledge, this statement constitutes the best, most complete, most concise definition of Islam. As could be expected, this definition caused no objections from those whom it is supposed to hurt the most: the revered Islamic leaders of Mecca and Qum, the Islamic scholars of Al-Azhar University in Cairo, the residents of royal and presidential palaces in Muslim countries assisting us in our war against their terror, the American professors receiving their salaries from Riyadh, the moderate Muslims residing both in the lands that are already Muslim and those that have never been but are turning Muslim right in front of our bewildered eyes, or their Jewish and Christian enablers and appeasers.[...]

    Go now, and read it all & share it with others for it is good!!

    Q:
    I propounded two questions:
    Was Muhammad a "true Muslim"? What did he say and do about "terror"?

    You have evaded both of them. Now an additional question is raised by your evasive answer: how could Muhammad be the "first Muslim"? Islam claims that Abraham, Moses & Jesus were Muslims, in which case, Muhammad could not be the first.

    Turning back to the second question from the origional set: What did Muhammad preach about terror and what did he do about it? Did Muhammad use terror as a battle tactic?

    You may safely assume that I know the answers and am trying to lead you to acknowledge them.

    A:
    You are the one with the answers, so please tell us.

    katie
    If Muhammad was a hypocrit, his whole creation falls apart from a rotten core. As the founder, he must be a true exemplar.

     Searching the Koran for terror finds these results:

    The Koran

    5 matches.

    The Family of Imran

    1. [3.151] We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.

    The Accessions

    1. [8.12] When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

    The Ant

    1. [27.89] Whoever brings good, he shall have better than it; and they shall be secure from terror on the day.

    The Mountain

    1. [52.45] Leave them then till they meet that day of theirs wherein they shall be made to swoon (with terror):

    The Banishment

    1. [59.2] He it is Who caused those who disbelieved of the followers of the Book to go forth from their homes at the first banishment you did not think that they would go forth, while they were certain that their fortresses would defend them against Allah; but Allah came to them whence they did not expect, and cast terror into their hearts; they demolished their houses with their own hands and the hands of the believers; therefore take a lesson, O you who have eyes!
    Two of them, which I have highlighted, contain obvious references to eternal judgement and are irrelevant to this discussion. A slight modification of the search term yields this additional ayeh:

    The Koran

    1 match.

    The Clans

    1. [33.26] And He drove down those of the followers of the Book who backed them from their fortresses and He cast awe into their hearts; some you killed and you took captive another part.
    Thus spake Allah: We will cast terror, I will cast terror, and cast terror, He cast awe. Results? Death, captivity & dispossession.

    Did Muhammad add anything of his own to this subject? The Islamic Network presents us with a Hadith search. Sahih Bukhari reveals these relevant hadith:
    Volume: 4, Book Number: 52, Hadith Number: 220
    Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).

    In Muslim we find this:
    Book Number: 4, Hadith Number: 1062
    Narrated AbuHurayrah:

    The Messenger of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: I have been given superiority over the other prophets in six respects: I have been given words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies): spoils have been made lawful to me; the earth has been made for me clean and a place of worship; I have been sent to all mankind; and the line of prophets is closed with me.

    Thusly has Muhammad expressed himself: "I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy)...; 'I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies)..."

    The testimony of Allah and his Messenger discloses the deception contained in claims that terrorism is bida resulting from 'hijacking' by 'extremists', 'fundamentalists' or 'radicals'. Allah sanctified it, commanded it and Muhammad bragged about it!

    If you can disprove the facts, show us your relevant, verifiable evidence.



    What makes you categorize FATA as 'moderate'? Have you so soon forgotten Arafat's mantra "a million martyrs marching to Jerusalem"? Islam is Islam. FATA, HAMAS, Hizbollah, etc. etal. are aliases created to create false images of multiplicity & plausible deniability.

    capraafflatus wrote: "Which of these facts do you deny? Which can you disprove? What are the potential consequences of ignoring them? What were the consequences of ignoring Hitler's Meine Kampf ??"

    I deny none of your assertions regarding the scripture. I am not out to disprove the existence or assertion of established literature. I am in no way advocating ignoring their calls. From which of my posting did you get that idea? The Hitler argument is apt. But I am not advocating ignorance.

    My point is that these documents have existed for over 1300 years.1 These directions to the people of Islam are not new. This I hope you would concur with. 2

    That being said, if these directions have not led to an Islamic world in 1300 years, why do you think they will be successful now?3 It is obvious to the observer that often, though not always, a more moderate view of Islamic life has prevailed. Else they or we would all be dead.4

    Straight answer. Do you fully believe Muslim people have the ability or collective desire to convert and/or destroy the other 5.2 billion people who currently are not of their faith?5

    Again, I ask-If you don't go after hearts and minds as well as going after their leaders, what solution do you see?6 Are there 1.1 billion bullets in our arsenal?7 Are we viewing the eerie specter of gas chambers?8

    I've read your quotes. Please read and consider what I am saying. I look forward to your post.

    Spinner

    1. Slight exageration; the concepts date from 624, but probably were not codified before 750. They were transmitted from mouth to ear for several generations.
    2. Agreed, neither the commands nor their exemplification are novel. This fact disproves the popular deception about 'hijacking' of Islam by 'extremeists'.
    3. In 70 years, Islam built a great empire. Within 700 years, the area they had conquered and occupied stretched from the border of France to the border of China. One recent summer, a large python attempted to eat & digest a large aligator in the Everglades. The aligator nearly clawed its way out of the snake's belly. Both died; neither succeeded in eating the other. The consequences are not trivial for either combatant. Hitler tried to conquer the world and failed. Fifty million lives were prematurely terminated. That is not a trivial consequence. Five years ago, Islam staged a mass casualty attack on our East coast. Three thousand died and hundreds of billions of economic loss resulted. Those consequences are non-trivial.
    4. The reality of Islam is reflected in the Islamic scripture quoted in my previous post. Deviation from observant zealotry is the exception which proves the rule. Al-Shaffii ruled that the Imam must mount an expedition against the Kuffar at least once in every year failing only for want of strength. When weak, Islam bides its time and accumulates men and arms. When strong it attacks. Every period of quiescence has been followed by a period of aggression. What would Islam have accomplished if Christian Europe had not resisted with the Crusades?
    5. They believe that they do; that is sufficient to lead them over the red line. It matters not whether they try and fail; what matters is the immensity of the lhuman and economic loss that will result from nuclear attacks on the great cities of western civilization. Pakistan has numerous warheads and is purchasing three submarines capable of carrying mirved warheads. It is just a matter of time! Islamic doctrine, preached in every Mosque and inculcated in every Madrassah, requires world conquest. Allah promised them a 10:1 advantage. They will continue to rely on that promise.
    6. Shrub refers frequently to 'ideological conflict' but refuses to name the ideology. Neither will he list and define the contested ideas. There is no attempt to itemize the enemy's doctrine set, much less to refute it. Kill the Emirs, Kings, Imams & Mullahs; they will be replaced. Incite mass apostasy among Ummah Islamiyya, and the whole system could crumble into dust. It is not possible to win their souls without first emancipating them from Allah's enslavement!!!!
    7. I have no clue as to our arsenal, or our productive capacity. Surely we were unprepared for WW2 when it hit the fan.
    8. Nasty try! Associate defense against Islamic aggression with Hitler's genocide against European Jewry. That is a sub set of the straw man argument.

    Islam : Muslim Islamofascism : Islamofascist
    Same thing! A distinction without a difference!

    Islam is a deen: way of life, not a religion. It concentrates temporal power in the hands of one man: Muhammad/ the Caliph. Its laws consist of Allah's commands and Muhammad's Sunnah.

    Muslims burning with zeal to kill or convert you are nothing special; they are Muslims who obey Allah and emulate his messenger. No dichotomy exists.
    • fundamentalism
    • extremism
    • radicalism
    When applied to Islam, are all figments of the immagination of those who lie about Islam.

    1. 8:39. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world ].
    2. 9:29. Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allâh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islâm) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
    3. 8:67. It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war (and free them with ransom) until he had made a great slaughter (among his enemies) in the land. You desire the good of this world (i.e. the money of ransom for freeing the captives), but Allâh desires (for you) the Hereafter. And Allâh is All-Mighty, All-Wise.
    4. 49:15. Only those are the believers who have believed in Allâh and His Messenger, and afterward doubt not but strive with their wealth and their lives for the Cause of Allâh. Those! They are the truthful.

    5. 9:33. It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islâm), to make it superior over all religions even though the Mushrikûn (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh) hate (it).

    6. Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 3, Number 125: Narrated Abu Musa:
      A man came to the Prophet and asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What kind of fighting is in Allah's cause? (I ask this), for some of us fight because of being enraged and angry and some for the sake of his pride and haughtiness." The Prophet raised his head (as the questioner was standing) and said, "He who fights so that Allah's Word (Islam) should be superior, then he fights in Allah's cause."
    7. Abu Dawud Book 14, Number 2737:

      Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar:

      The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) sent a detachment to Najd. I went out along with them, and got abundant riches. Our commander gave each of us a camel as a reward. We then came upon the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and he divided the spoils of war among us. Each of us received twelve camels after taking a fifth of it. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) did not take account of our companion (i.e. the commander of the army), nor did he blame him for what he had done. Thus each man of us had received thirteen camels with the reward he gave
    That is the standard of Islam! What Islam is. What Islam does. What part of this do you fail to comprehend? Take a closer look at this accursed verse:
    49:15. Only those are the believers who have believed in Allâh and His Messenger, and afterward doubt not but strive with their wealth and their lives for the Cause of Allâh. Those! They are the truthful.

    Thank you for the responsive reply. It appears that we are making some progress. I will backquote only controversial issues.

    1. I admit that I rounded the years. With no definitive year to attach the entry should have read "for something under 1300 years" or "for over well over 1200 years". No misrepresentation was meant by it.


    3. And for all that they accomplished, world domination still eluded them, as it did the Romans and Greeks before them.

    4. The reality of the scripture I am stipulating to. We need not go over it. My argument is not based in any disbelief in what you write about the text of faith.

    5. I understand that those who lead the crusade to bring the scriptures about believe they can, over time, obtain world domination. My simple question to you is, if that crusade is opposed, as it is now and has been throughout history, do YOU feel they can accomplish this task?

    6. I agree that, and nowhere in my post argue otherwise, that the current execution of the "war on terror" has been or will be ultimately effective. Emancipation through a combination of education of the masses and elimination of the violent leaders seems as though it might be a start. I don't see either being done.

    7. I withdraw this question as it was obviously rhetorical in nature. I don't imagine you have access to this. I was attempting to point out what would be required, minimally, to accomplish the eradication of the people professing to be Islamic. So straight on, are you saying eliminate those currently claiming to be Muslim?

    8. I admit to bringing forward the specter of Hitler only in that he had previously and even in your most recent post, been referenced. I would gladly place him and the Nazi's as a debating point outside the discourse. Truly it is tiresomely used. Instead I can elude to the attempt to eradicate Armenians during the era of WWI (not exclusive to the official dates of war but in the same era) by Turkish leadership (not withstanding the current government of Turkey's near silence on the issue). Even with all the means they put to work to destroy that people, they were unsuccessful.

    Thank you for your reply. In hopes that we have now defined our terms, I look forward to reading your response.

    1. Accepted. Islam uses the Hejira as their anchor date. The violence started one year after the Hejira. Muhammad's 'prophethood' dates from 610, so I often use that year as the anchor.
    2. Agreement; the canonical texts are a constant.
    3. Global domination is their strategic objective. Its perfection is predicted to be achieved on the last day. Between 610 and the last day a state of constant warfare applies. It was not expected to be completed in Muhammad's life time nor in that of his first twelve Caliphs. Examine these maps which delineate the areas conqured by Islam in several periods: first 25 years, 661...750, 900, 1300. How many millions of people were terrorized, murdered, displaced, dispossessed and enslaved in those conquests? Unnecessary human suffering intentionally imposed, not the final outcome is the vital issue in this case.
    4. Islamic doctrine is significant because it commands Muslims to perform the acts which deprived millions of life, liberty and property over the last 1383 years since the commencement of Jihad. It is litteral, absolute & immutable. It is why the suffering will continue until Islam no longer exists.
    5. With a few signal exceptions, Jihad has not been effectively resisted. Take another look at those maps. Most of the conqured areas are still dominated by Islam. There is, at present, no effective resistance to Jihad. Neither military nor demographic conquest is being effectively resisted. Regardless of the final outcome, many innocent victims will lose everything, including life.
    6. You don't see effective resistance because there ain't any. Nobody in power has the acuity to recognize the gravity of the situation nor the courage to initiate the requisite education, agitation, propaganda & military campaigns. Intimidation & disunity prevail; the same conditions which contributed to Muhammad's success in the Hijaz.
    7. There are only two possibilities: the elimination of Islam or intensive, extensive & interminable suffering from perpetual attack. There are two possible ways to eliminate Islam: ideological & military. I expect that neither method alone will suffice; they must be combined to achieve success.
    8. The Armenian & Assyrian genocides occurred in several episodes, some of which preceeded WW1. Millions died, many more were displaced and suffered physically, economically and emotionally. The failure to totally eliminate those victim populations is not as significant as the suffering of the millions of victims. Moreover, those genocidal Jihads served as exemplars for Hitler.

    World Net Daily and Debka file have published numerous articles on the subject. Those sites are good places to begin your search. We do not have a good way of knowing how much info Iran obtained from Korea, nor how much material. I doubt that their program commenced in this decade, I have seen claims that it began twenty years ago. We did not stop Russia from obtaining Nukes. I am old enough to remember the duck and cover drills. I was too big to fit under my desk. We did not stop Pakistan, nor India. Neither did we stop Korea, who has delivery systems capable of reaching our West coast. Iran is different. Because of their ideology, Iran can not be deterred. Once they have a working warhead and a delivey system, they will use it. I am not a military tactician. I will leave such matters to the experts. But we must do something effective, and in time, or we will suffer nuclear blackmail as never before.

    Islam is no more a monolithic religion than Christianity is. There are many different interpretations and sects. And I don't blame the religion for the what the extremists do, in either religion.
    Which sect of Islam:
    • rejects offensive Jihad
    • rejects terror as a battle tactic
    • does not apply the doctrine of dhimmitude to religious minorities
    • rejects the reconquest of Israel ????
    How populous is that sect? What proportion of Muslims belong to it? What influence does it have?

    What defines the doctrines of Islam:

    • is it the Qur'an or not
    • is the Qur'an Allah's word or not
    • are Allah's commandments clear or not
    • is Allah to be obeyed or not
    • Is Muhammad to be emulated or not?????
    What exemplifies the practice of Islam:
    • is it Muhammad's Sunnah or not
    • what did Muhammad say about the commands to fight disbelievers
    • What did Muhammad do about the commands to fight disbelievers
    • what did Muhammad say about terror
    • do Muhammad's words and actions confirm the Quranic commands or not
    • what did Muhammad do about the command to make a great slaughter??????
    I have propounded fifteen questions which you will not answer because honest & accurate answers to those questions prove my position and disprove yours. Islam stands exposed and condemned by failure to respond directly & truthfully to each of these questions.

    Bear in mind that I have access to the Qur'an & Hadith. I am able and willing to document refutation of dishonest answers with citations to canonical text.

    Dear Uri,

    Thank you for supporting my position so ably! Of course, Patricia will not respond to my questions for two reasons:
    1. Condesencion to touch a najis thing might throw her off balance, and debase her dignity by initiating a fall from her pristine pedestal.
    2. Each of the major questions I propounded is firmly grounded in the ample testimony of Allah and his Messenger, which I am prepared to document. Refuting the facts is impossible. Any attempt to do so can only result in further exposure of the poison at the core of Islam.

    >>> Otherwise ,if she walks away from it the debate is self cancelling as her arguments have been proven futile. <<<

    Imagine how little I care about what you think of my arguments. I have found that there is no point in trying to talk to people who insist on quoting isolated portions of the Qur'an1, and refuse to look at contradictory statements2. I've been seeing messages like Capra's here for years, and any rational challenge is simply ignored3.

    So, now, it's a lot easier to simply ignore HIM.

    1. The Qur'an is not monolithic. It was recited over a period of twenty years and when compiled, organized by the length of the Surahs, not by topic. Words, sentences and paragraphs have meaning. Various ayat are cited by compilers of Tafsir and quoted by Imams and those exhorting Muslims to Jihad. Many ayat were recited as situational scripture, for the purpose of rabble rousing. Muhammad did more than preach, he exemplified the implementation of many of Allah's commands. Thus hadith are used to clarify the meanings of ayat; the two reinforce each other; fitting hand in glove, proving a congruent pattern of word and action.
    2. Contradiction is not proof. He said / she said does not constitute useful debate. Assertion needs supporting evidence. Where is the evidence to show that Muhammad did not preach Jihad, terror & genocide? Where is the evidence to show that he did not perform them? The evidence that he did is contained in Islam's canonical texts.
    3. Rational challenge to the fundamental deception: " Islam is a great religion of peace" is ignored, scoffed at and labled as "hate speech", "rascism", "bigotry", "twisting", "perverting", "mistranslating" or "misinterpreting". Vehement assertion is substituted for evidence. If Islam's apologists had verifiable evidence to substantiate their case, they would present it.

    Christianity neither requires subjugation of non-believers nor encourages aggression. Islam does.

    Oh?

    Tell that to the millions of American Indians who died rather than 'convert'.

    lulu

    Please show us the exact Book, Chapter and Verse from the Gospels and Acts where Jesus Christ commands his desciples and apostles to engage in Imperialism!

    *LOL*, it doesn't have to be in a book1 to be wrong, just as the Qu'ran can be misinterpreted2, so can your bible.

    I don't care much about either, but I care about PEOPLE!

    lulu

    1. Doctrine based institutions need standards. Without the Torah, Judaism would not have a standard. Without the New Testament, Christianity would not have a standard. Without the Qur'an, Islam would not have a standard. When deviations occur, fundamentalists can call for a return to the standards set in the text.
    2. The Qur'an is intrinsically wrong, by design; not misitnerpreted! How could anyone misinterpret this infernal scripture?

      8:38. Say to those who have disbelieved, if they cease (from disbelief) their past will be forgiven. But if they return (thereto), then the examples of those (punished) before them have already preceded (as a warning).

      8:39. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do.

      8:40. And if they turn away, then know that Allâh is your Maulâ (Patron, Lord, Protector and Supporter, etc.), (what) an Excellent Maulâ, and (what) an Excellent Helper!

      8:41. And know that whatever of war-booty that you may gain, verily one-fifth (1/5th) of it is assigned to Allâh, and to the Messenger, and to the near relatives [of the Messenger (Muhammad)], (and also) the orphans, Al-Masâkin (the poor) and the wayfarer, if you have believed in Allâh and in that which We sent down to Our slave (Muhammad) on the Day of criterion (between right and wrong), the Day when the two forces met (the battle of Badr) - And Allâh is Able to do all things.

      8:42. (And remember) when you (the Muslim army) were on the near side of the valley, and they on the farther side, and the caravan on the ground lower than you. Even if you had made a mutual appointment to meet, you would certainly have failed in the appointment, but (you met) that Allâh might accomplish a matter already ordained (in His Knowledge); so that those who were to be destroyed (for their rejecting the Faith) might be destroyed after a clear evidence, and those who were to live (i.e. believers) might live after a clear evidence. And surely, Allâh is All-Hearer, All-Knower.

      That is not allegory; nor is it metaphorical. It states the name of the battle it refers to as an exemplar. The infernal command is clear and direct: And fight them until there is no more Fitnah...and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone. And the command is not without explicit verbal confirmation:
      Narrated Anas ibn Malik: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: I am commanded to fight with men till they testify that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is His servant and His Apostle, face our qiblah (direction of prayer), eat what we slaughter, and pray like us. When they do that, their life and property are unlawful for us except what is due to them. They will have the same rights as the Muslims have, and have the same responsibilities as the Muslims have.
      Allah informs us about his book; that it contains clear commands which are the foundation of the book and that those who are firmly grounded in knowledge believe all of it:

      3:7. It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad) the Book (this Qur'ân). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book [and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkâm (commandments, etc.), Al-Farâ'id (obligatory duties) and Al-Hudud (legal laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers, etc.)]; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials, etc.), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allâh. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord." And none receive admonition except men of understanding. (Tafsir At-Tabarî)


    If one had the time and inclination, one could do EXACTLY the same thing with the Torah and Bible, (best noted example, "Eye for an Eye").

    Once again, this type of thinking smacks of bigotry.

    lulu


    8:39. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world ]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do.

     Narrated Anas ibn Malik: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: I am commanded to fight with men till they testify that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is His servant and His Apostle, face our qiblah (direction of prayer), eat what we slaughter, and pray like us. When they do that, their life and property are unlawful for us except what is due to them. They will have the same rights as the Muslims have, and have the same responsibilities as the Muslims have.
    I have reproduced above two of the quotes I used, one from the Qur'an and the other from Hadith. You stated that you could find direct equivalents in the Bible. The New Testament sets the standard for Christianity; what Jesus preached and practiced. I have shown you a representative sample of what Muhammad preached. You can see what he practiced here.

    The Skeptic's Annotated Bible lists references to cruelty and violence found in the N.T. Clicking this link will bring that list into view. Using that list, find Christ's exact equivalent of the statements quoted above and show them to us.

    For those wishing to see more detail, here are the cruelty & violence links at the Skeptic's site:
    For the few inquisitive readers who want to know what Muhammad did; the acts & attitudes which confirm the evil of his recitation, here are links to relevant hadith in the four major collections: [Muslim Student Assn. at U.S.C.]
    I am not making empty assertions of opinion. I cite evidence, and I make it easy for readers to verify that evidence. You respond with innuendo, a veiled accusation of bitogry. Now i respectfully demand that you back up your assertion with relevant verifiable evidence. You won't do it because you can't do it, because there is no record of Jesus Christ preaching or practicing what Muhammad preached and practiced!

    oh really, try this;
    Leviticus 17:27: A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
    Exodus 22:18: Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
    22:20: He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.
    23:13: And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.
    23:24: Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.
    23:32: Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods.
    34:13: But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:
    14: For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
    15: Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods , and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;
    Numbers 25:2: And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods.
    3: And Israel joined himself unto Baal-peor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel.
    4: And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.
    Deuteronomy 6:14: Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;
    15: (For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth.
    7:1: When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
    2: And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
    3: Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
    4: For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.
    5: But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.
    12:1: These are the statutes and judgments, which ye shall observe to do in the land, which the LORD God of thy fathers giveth thee to possess it, all the days that ye live upon the earth.
    2: Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree:
    3: And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place
    13:12: If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,
    13: Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;
    14: Then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;
    15: Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
    16: And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again
    17:2: If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant,
    3: And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
    4: And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and inquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:
    5: Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
    2 Chronicles 15:13: That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
    this is only the tip of what i could find in the bible.
    as for those who claim that Jesus came to replace the OT laws. here is Matthew 5:17.
    a reply to:
    Christianity neither requires subjugation of non-believers nor encourages aggression. Islam does.
    The Old Testament sets the standard for Judiasm, not Christianity. Jesus Christ, by his preaching and practice, set the standard for Christianity. Nothing in your verbose post disproves the fact that Christianity neither requires subjugation of non-believers nor encourages aggression. Neither does it disprove the fact that Islam requires that disbelievers be subjugated and mandates aggression.

    Here is a sample of what Christ said:
    ¶ These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
    Mat 10:6
    But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
    Mat 10:7
    And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
    Mat 10:8
    Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
    Mat 10:9
    Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
    Mat 10:10
    Nor scrip for [your] journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
    Mat 10:11
    And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
    Mat 10:12
    And when ye come into an house, salute it.
    Mat 10:13
    And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
    Mat 10:14
    And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
    Mat 10:15
    Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
    Mat 10:16
    Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

    He did not tell his apostles to use force to convert anyone. He told them to preach the gospel and do good works, not to kill, not to fight, not to enslave or dispossess anyone.
    Don't strain your brain, but the topic of this thread is: "Should Islam Be Put Away Forever?" "Yer one, too!" attacks the accuser, it does not defend Islam. Islam stands condemned, in the eyes of any conscientious person, by its own canonical texts which command and exemplify the most malevolent works.
    It appears that there is a common, wide spread inability to distinguish between form and substance. Organized or not, believers in an intrinsically evil set of doctrines are likely to do great harm. Islam has an evil doctrine set and is organized. It has a 1383 year history of inflicting Hell on innocent people. It is not a matter of who or how, its a matter of what: what Allah commanded Muslims to do and how Muhammad showed them what to do.
    Jhn 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

    Mat 5:9 Blessed [are] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
    Christianity was founded for a benificent purpose, coopted by empires and corrupted by venal men. Christianity experienced a reformation.

    Islam was founded by a venal man for venal purposes, was never reformed, and is incapable of reform.

    When under seige by Islam, passivity is no solution. Enslavement is not an acceptable outcome!
    Islam, which falsely claims to be on the side of truth and justice, sanctifies and mandates barbarism.
    Many have fallen into the trap of deception: the lie of Multiculturalism. "All religions are equally valid pathways to God." Islam is neither valid nor a pathway to God.

    That is objective factual reality, not opinion! Islam was created as a means of personal enrichment and empowerment for its founder. Through piracy by rabble roused by his false doctrines, Muhammad obtained income, power and sex slaves.

    Islam's true purpose is exposed by the first ayeh of Surah Al-Anfal. "Say, Muhammad, the spoils are for Allah and the Messenger."
    There is a substantial qualitative difference between rogue Christians acting in contravention of Christ's teaching and faithful Muslims obeying Allah and emulating Muhammad.

    There is a substantial quantitative difference in the current century between Christian and Islamic violence.
    Once again, this is YOUR OPINION.

    You need to express that, otherwise you are lying.

    lulu


    Many have fallen into the trap of deception: the lie of Multiculturalism. "All religions are equally valid pathways to God." Islam is neither valid nor a pathway to God.

    That is objective factual reality, not opinion! Islam was created as a means of personal enrichment and empowerment for its founder. Through piracy by rabble roused by his false doctrines, Muhammad obtained income, power and sex slaves.

    Islam's true purpose is exposed by the first ayeh of Surah Al-Anfal. "Say, Muhammad, the spoils are for Allah and the Messenger.
    I have reproduced above the post you did not backquote. It is objective factual reality, not opinion.

    If there is one, and only one God, described by one religion as a loving creator who sacrificed his son to implement a plan of salvation and by another as arbitrarily creating one group of people for Paradise and another for the fire, both religions can not be right. One of them must be false.
    John 3:16 (KJV - "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life".)

    Malik's Muwatta Book 46, Number 46.1.2:

    Yahya related to me from Malik from Zayd ibn Abi Unaysa that Abd al-Hamid ibn Abd ar-Rahman ibn Zayd ibn al-Khattab informed him from Muslim ibn Yasar al-Juhani that Umar ibn al-Khattab was asked about this ayat - "When your Lord took their progeny from the Banu Adam from their backs and made them testify against themselves. 'Am I not your Lord?' They said, 'Yes, we bear witness'

    Lest you should say on the Day of Rising, 'We were heedless of that.'" (Sura 7 ayat 172) Umar ibn al-Khattab said, "I heard the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, being asked about it. The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, 'Allah, the Blessed, the Exalted, created Adam. Then He stroked his back with His right hand, and progeny issued from it. He said, "I created these for the Garden and they will act with the behaviour of the people of the Garden." Then He stroked his back again and brought forth progeny from him. He said, "I created these for the Fire and they will act with the behaviour of the people of the Fire." 'A man said, 'Messenger of Allah! Then of what value are deeds?' The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, answered, 'When Allah creates a slave for the Garden, he makes him use the behaviour of the people of the Garden, so that he dies on one of the actions of the people of the Garden and by it He brings him into the Garden. When He creates a slave for the Fire, He makes him use the behaviour of the people of the Fire, so that he dies on one of the actions of the people of the Fire, and by it, He brings him into the Fire.' "


    It is not possible for both theologies to be correct. One of them is in error.

    Islam is mercenary, not benevolent. Allah and his Messenger give ample testimony to prove this fact.
    8:1. They ask you (O Muhammad ) about the spoils of war. Say: "The spoils are for Allâh and the Messenger." So fear Allâh and adjust all matters of difference among you, and obey Allâh and His Messenger (Muhammad ), if you are believers.
    Book 019, Number 4327:The spoils of war were not made lawful for any people before us, This is because Allah saw our weakness and humility and made them lawful for us.

    Muslim Book 019, Number 4293:
    Book 019, Number 4294: It has been reported from Sulaiman b. Buraid through his father that when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him to fear Allah and to be good to the Muslims who were with him. He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war, do not embezzle the spoils; do not break your pledge; and do not mutilate (the dead) bodies; do not kill the children. When you meet your enemies who are polytheists invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. Then invite them to migrate from their lands to the land of Muhairs and inform them that, if they do so, they shall have all the privileges and obligations of the Muhajirs. If they refuse to migrate, tell them that they will have the status of Bedouin Muilims and will be subjected to the Commands of Allah like other Muslims, but they will not get any share from the spoils of war or Fai' except when they actually fight with the Muslims (against the disbelievers). If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them....
    34. O you who believe! Verily, there are many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks who devour the wealth of mankind in falsehood, and hinder (them) from the Way of Allâh (i.e. Allâh's Religion of Islâmic Monotheism). And those who hoard up gold and silver [Al-Kanz: the money, the Zakât of which has not been paid], and spend it not in the Way of Allâh, -announce unto them a painful torment.
    33:27. And He caused you to inherit their lands, and their houses, and their riches, and a land which you had not trodden (before). And Allâh is Able to do all things.
    Book 14, Number 2737: Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) sent a detachment to Najd. I went out along with them, and got abundant riches. Our commander gave each of us a camel as a reward. We then came upon the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and he divided the spoils of war among us. Each of us received twelve camels after taking a fifth of it. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) did not take account of our companion (i.e. the commander of the army), nor did he blame him for what he had done. Thus each man of us had received thirteen camels with the reward he gave.
    48:20. Allâh has promised you abundant spoils that you will capture, and He has hastened for you this, and He has restrained the hands of men from you, that it may be a sign for the believers, and that He may guide you to a Straight Path.

    Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220: Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).
    Volume 4, Book 52, Number 267: Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Khosrau will be ruined, and there will be no Khosrau after him, and Caesar will surely be ruined and there will be no Caesar after him, and you will spend their treasures in Allah's Cause." He called, "War is deceit'.
    Sahih Bukhari Ch 61 # 2756: ...It is mentioned from Ibn 'Umar from the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, "My provision has been placed under the shadow of my spear, and abasement and humility have been placed on the one who disobeys my command.
    Non-responsive, adhominem by inuendo does not cut the mustard. Your response confirms the validity of my post by demonstrating the fact that no relevant verifiable evidence exists to refute it.

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